"There's something peculiar about the modern millennial experience"
An interview with author Phoebe Luckhurst
Phoebe Luckhurst is the author of The Lock In and The Back Up Man. Her writing occupies what feels like a new ish or at least evolved genre of fiction which she helpfully defined for me when we chatted: a sort of millennial, rom-com/sit-com space. Phoebe is one of those people who wrote a book in the depths of lockdown instead of baking banana bread and screaming into the void (or perhaps she did all three, we’ll find out).
As my colleague at The Sunday Times Magazine (and once upon a time at ELLE), I always enjoy hearing Phoebe’s opinions about writing, books, TV and beyond. So, as her second novel, The Back Up Man goes out into the world (today!), I was well placed to commandeer her for a really fun conversation about all of the above. I hope you enjoy it.
HS: How was writing this book different to your debut?
PL: It definitely felt very different. On the one hand, it was easier simply in the sense that I'd done it before - so I was like, 'I can do this. I can literally get 90-odd-thousand-words down into a Word doc!' On the other hand - and this is not supposed to sound too grand - it was harder because I suddenly had a sense of an 'audience' who I was writing for - a certain set of (vague) expectations that on some days would weigh quite heavily. The first time around it was quite liberating write in a sort of vacuum - I hoped people would one day read the words (!) but I had no idea if they would. But the second time around it was like, 'What if the people who liked the first one hate this one???' Essentially, I will no longer laugh at indie bands when they talk about their 'difficult second album'.
HS: How do you think that affected your writing process this time?
PL: It definitely made me self-conscious. The first time around, on bad days, my brain felt like it had been wrung out - basically, I couldn't make any more words come out. At that point, I'd always say: 'fuck it, let's give up today and start again tomorrow'. And I usually managed that - drawing a line under it all and starting with fresh energy the next day. This time, the bad days tended to be less about the volume of words and more about the anxiety and self-consciousness of doing it a second time around. That feeling was much harder to 'switch off'. Obviously, I got over it - I managed to write the second book! But I definitely needed a little more reassurance, both from my agent and editor and delivered to myself, in muttered pep talks.
HS: That's totally understandable and I have to say that as a reader, none of those anxieties are in any way evident. It's so assured!
How do you categorise your writing?
PL: Thank you! It's such a team effort - my editor helped so much. I love being edited (!).
So, I tend to think of it as sitting in a sort of millennial, rom-com/sit-com space (terrible description). Categories are so interesting - I think they can be quite loaded. I've definitely heard people sneer at the idea of rom-coms. To which I say: you're missing out on a lot of fun.
HS: Firstly, you must be a rarity in loving being edited - your lucky editor! Secondly, I so agree with you about categories. I am a passionate fan of good romantic fiction/romantic comedy fiction and it really irritates me when people are patronising about it, usually when they've never read it. It's like any other genre fiction - some of it's good and some of it's bad. Also, I think good rom com fiction so often has brilliant dialogue which is SO hard to do.
Tell me about your writing set up? Desk, sofa, bed?
PL: I suspect it's probably a bonus of being a journalist as well as a novelist - as a journalist, you get so used to editors tearing up your work that you have to develop a thick skin early on. Also - my take on it is, myself and my editor have the same goal: to make the book as good as it can be, but I'm the one who gets the 'glory', so basically it's a win-win.
Totally agree on your point on genres - I think it's simplistic to dismiss something because you have an idea about what the 'worst' example of it might look like. And you're spot on about dialogue too - that rat-a-tat back-and-forth of good rom-coms is so underrated.
My writing set up is so not Instagrammable. I tend to work in my (small, hot) kitchen in south London, sitting in a quite uncomfortable IKEA desk chair, largely as this puts me near the fridge and kettle. I stick my phone on airplane and put it in a drawer in my bedroom at the opposite end of the flat for good and I close the door so my fiance, Sam can't hear me reading out prose/dialogue aloud (which I do a lot). I've tried the odd bit of writing in cafes, but I get too distracted watching people.
HS: Emily Henry told me she reads her dialogue out loud which seems like a very good approach to me.
How (the hell) do you fit writing in around your full time day job as an editor on a national newspaper?
PL: Ha. So, the first book I wrote during the heights of the first lockdown - I was working full time, but without a commute (or social life), I was able to find the time - and in fact (writer cliche alert) became a sort of therapy during those strange shapeless days. (I also did a lot of watching Normal People and staring at a blank wall in despair like everyone else.) I don't have children: I know I was very lucky for that period of time to feel like 'spare' time.
The second time around, I had to make judicious use of evenings and weekends. My favourite times to write are first thing on a weekend morning, so I'd try and get up early-ish on a Saturday and Sunday and get a few hours done. That way I could still do something later that day. I don't write amazingly with a hangover, though I also don't write terribly (again, thanks journalism)... Still, I usually try to be a bit organised and look at my diary to work around mornings where I might be feeling a bit rough. When a deadline is approaching, I tend to try and do evenings as well - I'm a big believer in the fact that even an hour is better than doing nothing, so you might as well see what you can get done.
HS: Your protagonist, Anya, is a brilliant cook which you told me is total wish fulfilment as you can’t boil an egg. Her cooking is so good though! Did you do lots of research?
PL: It was such wish fulfilment: I'm a very enthusiastic eater and an absolutely awful cook. I had to stop trying to boil eggs because I kept ruining them - Sam is the cook in our flat. So I did a lot of observing him at work (which was probably quite annoying - I think cooking is usually his alone time). I also asked foodie friends what they loved about cooking - why something that brings me out in a total panic makes them feel so zen! Then, I read cookbooks and menus to try and get a feel for the language, and made notes of meals I enjoyed at restaurants (hard job, but someone has to do it, etc) in order to have a think about flavours and cuisines. I should really learn to actually cook now...
HS: Yes, I think this is the launchpad you've been waiting for.
This is kind of a big question but why do you think you write what you write?
PL: It's a big one! Let me try and unpick it. OK, so I'm sure older generations will roll their eyes at this, and I know every generation thinks they're 'special' - but I think there's something peculiar about the modern millennial experience. Houseshares long into your 30s; dating apps; growing up on social media - I feel like they're all quite rich seams of comedy/writing in general and I find them a lot of fun to explore. Writing what you know can look like it's playing it safe - but as a writer, I personally find there's so much to experiment with. There are so many brilliant novelists who I think are writing these experiences from different perspectives, and in different ways, which is exciting as both a writer and a reader.
And I really like humorous writing - it's always been my favourite. I'm not an enormously serious person, but when I first started writing fiction, I thought I was supposed to write in this sort of quite serious, reverent voice. And every time I did it I'd be like, who is this?? And then I'd give up on whatever I was writing. The first time writing fiction felt like it was coming naturally was when I decided to try and do with a bit more humour. And suddenly I was like, yes!
HS: What are your all time favourite rom coms, both in literature and film?
PL: Books: Like any human with a soul, I am a sucker for One Day, which I re-read every year and on cue bawl my eyes out. I am also a disciple of Marian Keyes - especially Rachel's Holiday - because she writes with such humour and humanity, and balances the love story and the main character's arc so deftly. Bridget Jones's Diary is one of my favourite rom-coms - screamingly, laugh out loud funny.
On screen, I'm also a sucker for the old classics like Four Weddings (the Auden poem at the funeral will still set me off); When Harry Met Sally; 10 Things I Hate About You; My Best Friend's Wedding; Notting Hill... I thought about apologising for my tastes being so mainstream but I will never apologise for those films.
HS: Never. I only recently discovered Marian Keyes - what a (pathetically late) revelation that has been.
PL: She's a genius, I LOVE her.
HS: Are you already working on your next book?
PL: I am currently working on my next one! Currently wrestling with the plot - am trying to be the forward planner of my dreams and actually be thorough in plotting it out before I commit words to a Word Doc, but it's going to be set at a messy wedding, and feature some some happy (and unhappy) couples and exes. Watch this space…
Can you recommend a book, old or new, that you’ve loved?
Over the Christmas holidays I always do a re-read of old favourites, usually the well-thumbed copies that sit on the shelves at my parents' house. This time, I re-read Jonathan Coe's What A Carve Up! and Fever Pitch by Nick Hornby and remembered why I'd loved both. The former is a well-plotted dark family drama, the latter is a bittersweet memoir about fandom and obsession but both tell their stories so beautifully.
TV series?
I recently watched The Traitors (about a month after everyone else did) and was so obsessed with the psychological drama that I have considered emailing to ask if I can do work experience on the next series. As an unashamed, long-term disciple of reality TV (in my teens I used to spend the summer holidays watching the live, daytime stream of the Big Brother house, until my mother told me to GO OUTSIDE), I found it absolutely gripping.
I've also been rewatching Community, which is a very oddball American series from a decade ago, starring (among others) Gillian Jacobs, Donald Glover and Alison Brie. It has its flaws (the whole fourth season) and whether you like it probably depends on how similar your sense of humour is to mine, but I think at its best, the writing and layered jokes are very, very good. It's a go-to rewatch for me.
Podcast?
I spend too much time listening to football podcasts - The Athletic Football podcast, The Guardian Football podcast, Tifo, Handbrake Off - all of which I recommend if you're as obsessed with the Premier League as I am. But my favourite of all time is You're Wrong About - a brilliant pop culture podcast which dissects people and events and critiques the media myths that surround them, and how they gathered momentum. There's a four-part series on Princess Diana which I loved. See also: episodes on OJ Simpson, Y2K, the pop-star Jessica Simpson, Tonya Harding... The archive has some serious gems that make you think about biases and narratives - but they're a lot of fun.